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20.  Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| grumbles wrote: |
these days a lot of steps to me is anything over 2000, and i'm only an average player who can pass a handful of 14s |
Since when is this "average" anyway?
Besides, passing stamina songs is only one aspect of the game...
Beating OWA or Welcome to Rainbow doesn't make you automatically awesome at everything else. It just means you can beat OWA and Welcome to Rainbow.
Do you know what I do? I increase the scroll rate on officials to see if I can keep the speed up. Does that make me automatically awesome at the game? Not exactly, it just makes it funny to watch Tribal Style on 1.5x scroll rate. Give it a try - I'll watch. |
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grumbles
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| 21. Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| i dunno what the hell is average then? |
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pleasedon'thurtme
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| 22. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Average is actually an objective term that would require defining a quantity that constitutes skill such as score and measuring this quantity among a representative sample of players (from which the population must be defined -- everyone who has ever tried the game, regular players, etc.). Scores would then be divided by the sample size to achieve a mean, one of several statistics that could be calculated from the data.
| Xanthros wrote: | | there are too few people who are even good enough to know anything about hard songs, and most people who play don't care to ever get good. |
This suggests someone who can pass 14's is most likely far above average.
As for the sport debate, this source suggests Dance Dance Revolution and In The Groove -- heck, even Beatmania maybe -- can be considered sports: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sport
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That guy with the afro...
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Xanthros
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| 24. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: |
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When I said that, I meant too few people in the world, like there just aren't enough people who know anything about competitive dancing games to make it popular. However, I think someone who can pass 14s is definitely above average, even for a fairly regular player. It's hard to tell though, I guess for competitive players 14s are normal. I won't consider myself good until I can pass some 14s...but I play with mostly players who do those things.
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ranatalus
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| 25. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Naughty Nate wrote: | | While I obviously wouldn't know anything about the international scene as a whole, I'd be willing to bet money that if you took the top 10-20 players from America, Europe, and Asia and paid them to practice for 3 months day in and day out and then threw them in a tournament with each other, I would bet all my money that the American players would annihilate the majority of non-American players in both DDR and ITG2 |
i would actually think that the japanese mentality of BE THE ABSOLUTE BEST AT EVERYTHING YOU DO would cause the japanese players to work harder at it than most other people would
besides that we know from those youtube videos and the topranker tournament that the japanese have insane MA; all they'd really need would be a few weeks at most to get the stamina needed to do stupid 14 and 15 bullshit
regardless it's something that will never happen so who cares
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| Phrekwenci wrote: | | Yea all this sounds nice and corny and I'm sure you are going to open up a can of LOL and pour it on the floor to roll around in |
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grumbles
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| 26. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| ranatalus wrote: | | Naughty Nate wrote: | | While I obviously wouldn't know anything about the international scene as a whole, I'd be willing to bet money that if you took the top 10-20 players from America, Europe, and Asia and paid them to practice for 3 months day in and day out and then threw them in a tournament with each other, I would bet all my money that the American players would annihilate the majority of non-American players in both DDR and ITG2 |
i would actually think that the japanese mentality of BE THE ABSOLUTE BEST AT EVERYTHING YOU DO would cause the japanese players to work harder at it than most other people would
besides that we know from those youtube videos and the topranker tournament that the japanese have insane MA; all they'd really need would be a few weeks at most to get the stamina needed to do stupid 14 and 15 bullshit
regardless it's something that will never happen so who cares |
a few weeks ahahawhahhah
you think it takes a few weeks to go from 500 step to FAing 3000+ step songs?
get out |
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pleasedon'thurtme
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That guy with the afro...
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| 28. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| grumbles wrote: |
a few weeks ahahawhahhah
you think it takes a few weeks to go from 500 step to FAing 3000+ step songs?
get out |
Before I go off on my rant, I must warn that the first part is my opinion. If you disagree, don't argue and put songs in my face saying I am wrong.
Now then, any song that has 3000+ steps must suck because it's just most likely STREAMEN AND 16th/8th NOTAN and cannot be an official ITG song (maybe a course, but I'll get to official ITG stuff in a moment) in a million years. I don't care how many rainbows they're welcoming, is it really fair to Americans, Europeans, and Japanese folk to make them (the less ITG custom song fortunate) play stuff that some guy made on his copy of stepmania?
If we were to do what Naughty Nate said (months of training day in and day out), and keep all the custom song bullshit out (virgin ITG2 [not hacked but updated]), then it would not be a blowout by the Americans.
If people were competing in courses using ITG's hardest songs, then I think American's might get the advantage because of the stamina drain and consistent FA that came from all of those custom songs. I haven't seen a Japanese player push harder than Boss Rush SN2 and Episode IV.
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Moonbeam Funk
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| 29. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| grumbles wrote: | | i dunno what the hell is average then? |
Depends on what you think makes someone "good" at the game... There's a discussion on this in Gameplay... I can't do 14s or most 13s but I can 99+ most 10s and below, and I can quad a couple of things. I think accuracy is the most important aspect of the game and it's really the only thing I care about (if you can bracket a 15, it doesn't phase me; if you can FA a 15 that's cool) but everyone seems to think differently.
Anyways since I'm here, I think it should be called a sport. It's competitive and somewhat athletic, even DDR which doesn't have many physically tiring songs. Besides, curling is a sport.
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| 30. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| That guy with the afro... wrote: | | I don't care how many rainbows they're welcoming |
I've never really been fond of sigging what people say on the forums - but this would definitely be something I might consider sigging.
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If you already have insane accuracy on DDR (for instance, you have insane MA on difficult 10s), going to 14s isn't a big jump - as Ranatalus said.
Playing 14 stream charts isn't more difficult - it's just different. I wouldn't go on the rooftops and say "omg I'm godly b/c I just beat OWA" - I've seen players literally b.s. passes out of custom 13s 14s and even 15s and come up short on FA. Go beat your 15 and then go quad a few expert charts. Unless you work both sides of the game, you will come up short.
Endurance and FA correlate at higher levels, but are not directly related to each other. Taking awesome FA (or in DDR terms MA) and running through a 14 or 15 is a lot easier to warm into than going from barely passing 14s to trying to FA.
Long story short:
You beat a custom 14+ song: OK, you're good.
You beat a custom 14+ song and get > 96%: You're awesome.
Grumbles - do you know how much endurance it takes to play an oni course on DDR? Go play Max of Maxx, Boss Rush IV, Boss Rush SN2, and tell me (if you pass it) if someone who can do that could easily bust a 14.
Pleasedon'thurtme - this community is very small, and with it there are players here that are also really good at the game (comparing them to the average player). Many things that individuals can do here are beyond comprehension for most players, let alone passable.
Take this as an example: If you have ever played FFR, some people have taken FFR files (up to level 9) and put them on machines. I guess a good example of this is {Blaze}. There are people who seriously attempt and pass files like this as part of their normal game play. |
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Moonbeam Funk
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| 31. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Ninja N8 wrote: | | If you already have insane accuracy on DDR (for instance, you have insane MA on difficult 10s), going to 14s isn't a big jump - as Ranatalus said. |
I very strongly disagree. There is a BIG jump between DDR 10s and ITG 14s. Also, everyone calls it "endurance," which is something I don't understand since most songs are only a couple minutes long, and even the longest ones aren't THAT long (as a runner, "endurance" would mean song after song... For a very long time).
I think the most difficult thing to get past is foot-speed. I could do 140 BPM 16th streams for probably an hour without getting tired (that is pure endurance) but once it goes over 170, I can hardly do it in small bursts. 14s usually have a lot of very, very fast streams, and maybe some purple bullshit, so I can't do them.
Even my problems with DDR 10s... Like why I have a better score on Unlimited than Legend, and why I'm so awful at PSMO... Have to do with footspeed. At the end of the song I'm not tired. I'm not breathing heavily. My heart-rate doesn't increase much at all. But doing 290 BPM weird crossover patterns, or 330 BPM streams with jumps thrown in is still hard for me to PA.
| Ninja N8 wrote: | | Grumbles - do you know how much endurance it takes to play an oni course on DDR? Go play Max of Maxx, Boss Rush IV, Boss Rush SN2, and tell me (if you pass it) if someone who can do that could easily bust a 14. |
Yeah, that's the difference between actual endurance and what people call endurance for reasons I'll never understand. I could also do DDR 10 after DDR 10 for a very long time without being phased, but I can't do 14s.
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| 32. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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I should've been more specific:
Endurance required to MA an oni course and then going to a 14.
This is what I meant to say.
There isn't much endurance in MA with a single 10, but staying consistent over an entire course is a different story altogether. |
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Moonbeam Funk
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| 33. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Alright, sorry for taking it out on you then. I'm just tired of people telling me I don't have the "endurance" to do 14s when I can run 12 miles like it's nothing. There are obviously other factors.
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grumbles
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| 34. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Moonbeam Funk wrote: | | grumbles wrote: | | i dunno what the hell is average then? |
Depends on what you think makes someone "good" at the game... There's a discussion on this in Gameplay... I can't do 14s or most 13s but I can 99+ most 10s and below, and I can quad a couple of things. I think accuracy is the most important aspect of the game and it's really the only thing I care about (if you can bracket a 15, it doesn't phase me; if you can FA a 15 that's cool) but everyone seems to think differently.
Anyways since I'm here, I think it should be called a sport. It's competitive and somewhat athletic, even DDR which doesn't have many physically tiring songs. Besides, curling is a sport. |
ah well i don't even know how to bracket, never really taught myself actually and it's actually killing my scores on a lot of songs with hands =/ shrug
but yeah i agree bracketing is ridic and doesn't impress me at all, jdongz passing 15s or 16s or whatever bracketing with socks are probably the least impressive "accomplishments" i've ever seen |
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grumbles
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| 35. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ninja N8 wrote: | | That guy with the afro... wrote: | | I don't care how many rainbows they're welcoming |
I've never really been fond of sigging what people say on the forums - but this would definitely be something I might consider sigging.
-------------------------
If you already have insane accuracy on DDR (for instance, you have insane MA on difficult 10s), going to 14s isn't a big jump - as Ranatalus said.
Playing 14 stream charts isn't more difficult - it's just different. I wouldn't go on the rooftops and say "omg I'm godly b/c I just beat OWA" - I've seen players literally b.s. passes out of custom 13s 14s and even 15s and come up short on FA. Go beat your 15 and then go quad a few expert charts. Unless you work both sides of the game, you will come up short.
Endurance and FA correlate at higher levels, but are not directly related to each other. Taking awesome FA (or in DDR terms MA) and running through a 14 or 15 is a lot easier to warm into than going from barely passing 14s to trying to FA.
Long story short:
You beat a custom 14+ song: OK, you're good.
You beat a custom 14+ song and get > 96%: You're awesome.
Grumbles - do you know how much endurance it takes to play an oni course on DDR? Go play Max of Maxx, Boss Rush IV, Boss Rush SN2, and tell me (if you pass it) if someone who can do that could easily bust a 14.
Pleasedon'thurtme - this community is very small, and with it there are players here that are also really good at the game (comparing them to the average player). Many things that individuals can do here are beyond comprehension for most players, let alone passable.
Take this as an example: If you have ever played FFR, some people have taken FFR files (up to level 9) and put them on machines. I guess a good example of this is {Blaze}. There are people who seriously attempt and pass files like this as part of their normal game play. |
i get what you're saying about oni courses but i still don't think they're nearly as intense, and yeah i do know how much endurance they take
i think what would seperate a lot of japanese players who have good MA (is that what we're calling it now? what happened to PA =P) from a lot of american players who have insane FA on 14+ charts is simply technique - i simply do not see the stamina-conserving short-stepping type of technique that has to be employed to FA long runs or long songs at 180+bpm being used by japanese players - it's a trait that has almost been entirely developed and evolved by american players, that i don't think you can "get" in two weeks or less - technique is learned and evolves over time, you can't magically modify your technique to short-step and FA at the same time
it's not that japanese players are not capable of doing this - i'm certainly sure they are - they just haven't had the time or exposure to the types of charts/songs we have had for quite some time
also another part where they would more than likely fall flat compared to american players are songs with tons of hands, which most top players here will bracket with near perfect FA, another technique which takes awhile to learn - i highly doubt there are any japanese players proficient at bracketing hands at all
| Moonbeam Funk wrote: | | Ninja N8 wrote: | | If you already have insane accuracy on DDR (for instance, you have insane MA on difficult 10s), going to 14s isn't a big jump - as Ranatalus said. |
I very strongly disagree. There is a BIG jump between DDR 10s and ITG 14s. Also, everyone calls it "endurance," which is something I don't understand since most songs are only a couple minutes long, and even the longest ones aren't THAT long (as a runner, "endurance" would mean song after song... For a very long time).
I think the most difficult thing to get past is foot-speed. I could do 140 BPM 16th streams for probably an hour without getting tired (that is pure endurance) but once it goes over 170, I can hardly do it in small bursts. 14s usually have a lot of very, very fast streams, and maybe some purple bullshit, so I can't do them.
Even my problems with DDR 10s... Like why I have a better score on Unlimited than Legend, and why I'm so awful at PSMO... Have to do with footspeed. At the end of the song I'm not tired. I'm not breathing heavily. My heart-rate doesn't increase much at all. But doing 290 BPM weird crossover patterns, or 330 BPM streams with jumps thrown in is still hard for me to PA.
| Ninja N8 wrote: | | Grumbles - do you know how much endurance it takes to play an oni course on DDR? Go play Max of Maxx, Boss Rush IV, Boss Rush SN2, and tell me (if you pass it) if someone who can do that could easily bust a 14. |
Yeah, that's the difference between actual endurance and what people call endurance for reasons I'll never understand. I could also do DDR 10 after DDR 10 for a very long time without being phased, but I can't do 14s. |
this is exactly the type of thing i'm talking about - she can do ddr 10s all day, perhaps four of them back to back, and not get tired, right?
throw a simple chart like uber rave in front of her and how does she do? she fails 1/4 through the final, one minute long stream, is what i would imagine would happen
why? and why would this be common with japanese players? to put it simply, technique. i'd be willing to bet her technique, which allows her to FA 140bpm 16ths, requires her to use a much greater magnitude of energy to FA 175bpm 16ths
as for why her technique holds her back, i don't know - maybe she leans down on the bar like i see a lot of players doing when she encounters very fast runs, maybe she steps too far, maybe she steps too high, maybe it's a combination of those things, i really can't say as i haven't seen her play, but this kind of technique does not simply develop on it's own unless it has a reason to develop, and that reason is FAing extremely long, high bpm streams or jumpstream
even top american players did not simply jump right into dragonforce songs - one more lovely being passed on pad was a HUGE accomplishment, but why? why was it such a big deal? why was it so hard for everyone back then when we have people doing 226bpm 16th streams now with insane accuracy?
the answer is technique, a type of technique that was simply unnecessary, and thus not developed by players until they faced challenges that deemed it necessary |
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That guy with the afro...
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grumbles
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| 37. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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that's what i meant - complicated patterns that require a lot of holding of 2-3 freezes while still hitting steps that are much easier to FA when you bracket rather than actually doing the hands
bracketing stuff like that takes a bit of experience to get used to, and even actually doing the hands does when you have complicated patterns |
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| 38. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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The acronym "MA" has been around for a few years now.
Marvelous was introduced into play in courses in Extreme, so it's been around since then...I've been using MA for at least four years now...
When did you start playing, Grumbles? |
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grumbles
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| 39. Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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october 2005 i guess, thats when i registered here
i dont keep up with what goes on in the ddr scene at all, started with extreme, switched to itg2 after 3-4 months when it came out, quit itg for a year so due to lack of a machine closeby
my experience w/ddr is pretty limited, i don't even have any AAAs due to not having a machine near me with pads good enough to get them
no sn/sn2 nearby either, just a few ddrex cabinets that are beat to shit |
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