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Report on music games from DPad
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sherl0k
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0. PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:13 pm    Post subject: Report on music games from DPad Reply with quote

The Game II linked me to this somewhat interesting article dealing with music games (mostly DDR and Guitar Hero) and how they've become mainstream. They also report Activision releasing Guitar and Drum Villain in the article, which was recently trademarked just a few weeks ago. At least now we can confirm that the games are indeed in development.

The one thing that confuses me about the article is that the writer seems to believe that DDR tournaments are a "new" thing and really haven't matured, and that "they don't provide huge payouts." Someone missed the Jacob Javits tournies in NYC this past year, or the year before...

Also they put a mention in to DDRFreak and talk about how this place has been standing since 2000 but tack on an 's' to the URL, which won't lead people here.
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Last edited by sherl0k on Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total
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Pakwan Kenobi
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1. PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:26 am    Post subject: Re: Report on music games from DPad Reply with quote

sherl0k wrote:

The one thing that confuses me about the article is that the writer seems to believe that DDR tournaments are a "new" thing and really haven't matured, and that "they don't provide huge payouts."


It is quite possible that the author is comparing the payout of DDR tournaments to the payout of high-profile tournaments of other video game genres, in which case the author would be correct. Consider the Evo tournaments for fighting games, or high-profile tournaments for FPSs. Compared to those payouts, Digital Life's tourneys' payouts are chump change. The biggest payout I can think of for an arrow-smashing tournament would be the machine won at ITG Nationals...definitely not a regular payout; this payout was more the exception rather than the rule.

(random flashback about that guy who said that he won about $15,000 a year playing DDR tournaments...damn, almost snorted my drink)

Also, calling DDR tournaments a "new" thing is a subjective comment, I agree. However, it's not completely inaccurate. Apart from ITG Nationals, the tourneys to which you referred in your original post, and various tourneys that took place in California over the past 6-7 years, major large-scale tourneys for arrow-smashing are definitely few and far between, at least compared to, say, major tourneys for various fighting games.

I do agree that the article, as a whole, could have used a little more work...but oh well. E1.gif
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sherl0k
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2. PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't that JSB that won all those tournies, out in Cali?
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3. PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait... drum villain?
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4. PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Did you fail at becoming that elusive rock or pop star? There is still a chance to use your skills and even pick up a little recognition in the process. Welcome to music-based gaming.
Ugh. When will people learn rhythm games have NOTHING to do with musicianship? DDR is not dancing, and Guitar Hero is not playing the guitar (despite what some of you idiots think)

Secondly, it's horrible that DDR is being compared to shit like Guitar Hero. DDR was not always mainstream, and the fanbase of DDR players is nothing like that of GH.

The reputation of rhythm games has already reached rock bottom, but it's people like this who guarantee it will never rise again.

Fuck you, Dpad, whoever the Fuck you are.
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5. PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it has plenty to do with musicianship. Wasn't it hard for you to step to a beat when you first started playing ddr? Freestylers still exist, and they have plenty of artistic talent. Its true that most people that play frequently are steppers, but even that has some musical attributes. Yeah, you could say its eye-foot/leg coordination, but (assuming the song is on sync), a lot of it has to do with music.

I haven't played guitar heroes, so I can't really say much about that game.
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6. PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

they fail to mention USPF(US Pump It UP festival) and WPF(world pump it up festival) in the whole entire article. those are probably some of the biggest competitions involving a video game out there.
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7. PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sherl0k wrote:
Also they put a mention in to DDRFreak and talk about how this place has been standing since 2000 but tack on an 's' to the URL, which won't lead people here.

They did manage to link to it correctly earlier in that paragraph, though.

stuiskoo wrote:
Secondly, it's horrible that DDR is being compared to shit like Guitar Hero. DDR was not always mainstream, and the fanbase of DDR players is nothing like that of GH.

I don't see why that's relevant. And they even say that GH is less popular and less organized as a community.

stuiskoo wrote:
The reputation of rhythm games has already reached rock bottom, but it's people like this who guarantee it will never rise again.

Fuck you, Dpad, whoever the Fuck you are.

You're overreacting. It's just an article.
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8. PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sherl0k, back in the day, the bigger payout usually went to freestyle, and JSB was better at technical than at freestyle. AI2's Solo 2000 machine was won by Mel B. Matsuri AI's Solo 4th Plus was won by dj 8-ball for his Cafe routine. B3 was won by...well technical was dominated by GPF.Lith and Team Seattle. Freestyle was....Bruce Leroy, I think, and I don't remember if he got the $1000. Mike Ngo's March Madness tourneys were large in terms of participation, but never approached $1000 for 1st prize payout.

Ask the SoCal community who won their more recent big payout tourneys. I'm thinking specifically of the RGC series, since Kiba/John Locke/CEO Dude from Alpha Centauri organized those, and donated his own money for those. Something tells me it was JJK for at least one of those...
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9. PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuiskoo wrote:
Ugh. When will people learn rhythm games have NOTHING to do with musicianship?


besides keyboard mania
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The Game II
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10. PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My problem with the story was just the absolute lack of knowledge. I would have rather heard all of what cynan said and be content. It just showed that the author knew very little about the ddr scene (and if you read the comments, seems that way with the readers as well, aside from rantalus).

And the total lack of information about PIU nationals and world championships is just bad.

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11. PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuiskoo wrote:
DDR is not dancing, and Guitar Hero is not playing the guitar (despite what some of you idiots think)

Funny you say that. I was just listening to Orange Lounge Radio on Sunday and I believe it was a new person named Marissa that sings and plays regular guitar. She made a comment somewhat like this:
Quote:
Playing guitar gets you laid, playing video games (GH) does not!

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12. PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, they fixed the "s" thing. blink.gif
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13. PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:09 pm    Post subject: Competitive Rhythm Games Reply with quote

I'm not offended by anything in this article. It seems like they're just comparing organized DDR to other organized video games, such as FPSes, RTSes, and fighters. DDR does have the most unusual popularity::organization ratio of the entire video game universe though. Every other game (that may or may not also define its genre) that is at least as half as popular as DDR seems to have a much more established competitive community. Someone at TGA was telling me about their Tony Hawk Pro Skater career and it was impressive. Seriously! The winner got $10,000 for that game too!

For Guitar Hero I know what the deal is - the game doesn't reward exceptional play. You got a 100% streak! Good for you. That's pretty much expected at the competitive level. The difference between players would be who used their score multipliers and when, and that's lame. I remember someone making an Amplitude strategizer. The output of the program was a chart that maximized your score multipliers for a given song. My inner dork was pleased, my inner gladiator was not.

For DDR I think I know what the problem is - no one wants to watch it. DDR isn't played head-to-head like RTSes, FPSes, fighters, football, baseball, chess, or whatever. No conflict. Competitive players want to have strategy even while they are simulataneously pushing something physical to their limits. For example baseball has strategy besides being a contest of strength and speed. That makes baseball fun to watch! But the lack of conflict is not the issue. If it were then nobody would care about bowing, golf, or the Olympics. The only thing that DDR lacks that those other sports have is an audience. Counter-Strike and the Boston Red Sox draw an audience. Joe Peterson, sadly, does not. (I picked him because his name is Joe.) But if Joe did draw crowds then prize money would follow and competition would follow that. If you follow me. E15.gif

At TGA there are postcards on the front counter advertising a $1000 bowling tournament in NY with a $25 entry fee. Compare that to the $50/$30/$20 that DDR players usually get and the $1000 that TGA is putting up later this year. But there's no argument that bowling > DDR today. However, TGA does have a DDR league, which is like a bowling league, except that you play DDR instead. And there is a points race. C'mon! Points race! Click the links. It's like being there!
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14. PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

world wide and as far as arcade games are concerned music games are far more established than your average crap you can get at home no problem... the thing is arcade music games always offer something over their console counterparts... for instance 250 more songs...

And not mentioning Pump it Up World Fest was just a lack of actually looking into the genre... any of us without biases towards game series could have wrote a better article... and everyone seems to think DDR was the start... no it was Dance Aerobics for NES with the power pad... same concept without arrows.

Also there are music games where real dance are involved more so than technical feets here are some of them : 3DDX D-Tech, Dance Maniax, Pump it Up, Para Para Paradise, and Technomotion and then there are quite a few music games that use real instrument controls that do help you play said instrument... Drummania is a good example of this... so is keyboardmania.

This article feels more like a music game bash topic that basically says : "blah the concept is the same and people who play don't get laid and you know what... they're all the same game..." yet then the same person will probably praise how great and different Gears of War is despite there being a million other shooting games out there...
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15. PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While they are dead wrong that DDR tournaments are not new, they're spot-on with "no big payouts".

$1,000? $10,000? A machine? True, that's much higher than what usually gets paid out for video game tournaments, but here are some other things to look at:

*On TV, all you hear about are game shows that have top prizes of $1,000,000. Survivor, Millionaire, Deal or No Deal, etc. This puts the mentality in your average joe that in order to be BIG something may have to break seven figures.

*Major League Gaming's contracts that went out to some of the pros, if I'm not mistaken, were $250,000.

*The Omegathon, which was done by the Penny Arcade guys, has increased its prizes each year, and involved a car + a crapload of games/systems/stuff as its first place prize.


A good few years ago, when I got into DDR initially, I looked at the comic/novel "The 10k commotion", about a $10,000 DDR tech tournament, and said "This really needs to happen." Now it has, but it's still not enough. I don't think tournament payouts would be taken seriously by the mainstream media until there is a player who is good enough that they can live solely off of DDR tournament winnings.

Maybe MLG will pick up DDR, and we'll start to see something more along those lines. Maybe with more attention being shown to video game competitions on TV (I remember turning on CBS one Saturday and seeing some special about FPS competitions) some company out there will host the $1,000,000 DDR tournament. But until then, until it's worth it for people to fly from all over the country to a DDR tournament because the prizes ae just so big, the article is right in that respect.
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16. PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Competitive Rhythm Games Reply with quote

Catastrophe wrote:
For DDR I think I know what the problem is - no one wants to watch it. DDR isn't played head-to-head like RTSes, FPSes, fighters, football, baseball, chess, or whatever. No conflict. Competitive players want to have strategy even while they are simulataneously pushing something physical to their limits. For example baseball has strategy besides being a contest of strength and speed. That makes baseball fun to watch! But the lack of conflict is not the issue. If it were then nobody would care about bowing, golf, or the Olympics. The only thing that DDR lacks that those other sports have is an audience. Counter-Strike and the Boston Red Sox draw an audience. Joe Peterson, sadly, does not. (I picked him because his name is Joe.) But if Joe did draw crowds then prize money would follow and competition would follow that. If you follow me. E15.gif


I've argued this point as well.

Other competitive games have been around for a long time because what Player 1 does affects what Player 2 does, action and reaction. The only things I can think of where Player 2 isn't affected by Player 1 are golf and track and field (because oil patterns wear down in bowling). In DDR, it's a race to master the step charts.

So in places like California, Washington state and New York, where the bar is raised SO HIGH, you have to be in the top 5 percent to even have a chance at winning money. Other places are getting there, but still not to that level. But to be in the other 95 percent, are they even willing to compete? You need scrubs to generate interest and that extra money. This is one of the reasons I believe why DDR tournaments won't ever be what they will be.

dancingmewtwo wrote:
Maybe MLG will pick up DDR, and we'll start to see something more along those lines.


I find that a very longshot now, since MLG dropped Melee from its 2007 tour.

Quote:
Maybe with more attention being shown to video game competitions on TV (I remember turning on CBS one Saturday and seeing some special about FPS competitions) some company out there will host the $1,000,000 DDR tournament. But until then, until it's worth it for people to fly from all over the country to a DDR tournament because the prizes ae just so big, the article is right in that respect.


The show you saw was the World Series of Video Games championship, on tape delay btw.

We also have to take into account the various technical problems that occur at your everyday tournament before a national event can even happen: the screen, resolution, sensors, pad slickness, THE BAR (oh my goodness, if anyone wants a starting point, there you go), rest inbetween, song selection, format, etc.

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17. PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points. Would love to see THAT dispute (the bar) solved once and for all...but if ITG can't solve it, I doubt ANYTHING can.
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18. PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a girl on Facebook who was talking about seriously turning pro in DDR and a bunch of us from the Mid-A/Northeast area just laughed at her. Unless Konami/Betson's willing to put a foot forward like they did for Digital Life at the Javits Center, it's virtually impossible.

I do agree that the game needs to be a bit more involved. An R21-like gimmick for tournaments could potentially drive DDR back towards a competitive emphasis, but until the game's depth expands, people will still be AAAing everything all the time, and there's no way it'll be fun to make competitive for the entertainment value (RIP Freestyle).

I find it odd but not surprising that the author didn't mention GF at all. Not saying it was necessary, because it isn't, but if he's talking about the competitive aspect of GH (or the lack thereof, because of it's "timing windows" and incredibly weak learning curve), I was suprised that he didn't make a comparison to it (similar to no mention of PIU, which also was kind of odd).
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19. PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Julie wrote:
I find it odd but not surprising that the author didn't mention GF at all. Not saying it was necessary, because it isn't, but if he's talking about the competitive aspect of GH (or the lack thereof, because of it's "timing windows" and incredibly weak learning curve), I was suprised that he didn't make a comparison to it (similar to no mention of PIU, which also was kind of odd).


well, julie, remember that most "gaming experts" are not familiar with anything beyond the most popular, mainstream games, save for their own personal niche. I'm sure there are billions of rpgs out there, but most of us are familiar with final fantasy, kingdom hearts, and maybe one or two other personal favorites. most of us don't know the difference between evolution and evolution 2, nor can they even guess what system it's for!

ESPECIALLY with regards to guitar freaks, some people think guitar hero is THE MOST INNOVATIVE IDEA EVER OGMOGOGMOMG

One of the local places I play DDR at has a GF 1st mix, and I overheard someone say "it's some kind of lame guitar hero knockoff" despite the "(c) 1998" on the header. Why? because it's what they know, and anything beyond that is too obscure.

(also hi jooliQ :3)
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