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Starbucks--Evil Corporation or Trendy Hot Spot?
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100. PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psyton, he meant that you're one to judge people without thinking, considering you're part of a class of people that is judged without thought. disturb.gif
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epilonious
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101. PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ITS DARE! wrote:
Psyton, he meant that you're one to judge corporations without thinking, considering you're part of a class of people that is judged without thought. disturb.gif


Yes, and I agreed with him for the most part that it's absurd to try and label a corporation as evil when really all I was getting at is "the starbucks in my area seem to need some overhauls in their customer service policies... I've had some bad experiences at all the starbucks I have been to so I don't put it past them to throw an attitude at someone for trying to cash a $100 bill and I don't think that's a good thing for any business to do considering they want to make money and pissing off random fringe customers tends to get you a bad rap that might hurt your business overall."

But when he starts going "and how dare you AS A GAY MAN say anything like that".. two thoughts pop into my head: "Was I talking about how much I want to have sex with women or something?" and "what a completely asinine, manipulative, hypocritical argument... "

I mean... I equate that with Orson Scott Card's argument against gay marriage in reccolections of "pompous, insidiously bad argument patterns" I have had the mispleasure of seeing.

I mean it's got it all

-complete hypocricy (complaining that I am formulating a stereotype about starbucks only to imply that homosexuals should be castigated about stereotypes because stereotypes have been formed about them... which seems like a much worse stereotype than "hurr, Starbucks has some customer service issues")
- pompousness w/predefense (so what if he has gay friends and a gay Mom, I'm pretty sure if he tried to tell them they should or shouldn't do something solely on the measure of their gayness he'll get slapped by them too)
- feigned disgust (Gee, I'd like to say I'm sorry it seems doubly offensive that arguments he didn't like were made by, of all people, a gay man... but since it seems he was successfully trying to be an instigatory little bastard... I would rescind my apology... and if he wasn't... then he DEFINITELY doesn't get one)
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102. PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See Pyston, your problem with debating is you come into debates with predisposed notions about personal expirences.

You fail to create a proper arguement because of this.

Look at the rules of debating. You cannot debate on a subject with any prejudice. Look up the word prejudice. Every post you have made in this thread was done with, as the dictionary plainly puts it, with judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

This is not a debate about the fact that your gay, that my mother is gay, that people I know are gay. It's about Starbucks. A corperation that you hate so much because of your own prejudice against them.

I was raised in a single parent home by a gay woman. Who tought me one of the most important values of being a TRUE human being. Nonprejudice. This means that I take in the facts before making a decision on anything. This was all tought to me by a woman that thruout all of her life has been a victim of prejudice just because of the fact that she is gay. Her family cut her off because she is gay, friends have cut her off because she is gay.

My own family won't even have anything to do with her because she is gay? The kindest, most helpful person I know in my life, is being disregarded as a human being because she is gay? Is that justice? In a country where everyone is supposed to be intitled to freedom of speech and expression, there are still people in this nation that still judge people because they are different. Gay's aren't different, nor are Blacks, Latinos, Jews, Muslims or the hundreds of others out there that deal with rasicm, prejudice and slander because they aren't "normal".

Prejudice is WRONG. IT'S DARE already pointed it out for me. A person that has had to deal with prejudice is the last person I would ever expect to be prejudice against anything. But apparently you took it as Gay Bashing. Which if you did, it wasn't and I am Human enough to appologize that something I said was taken out of context and that you were offeneded by it, but that was not my plan.

But also, I'm not going to attack someone because they have offended me. Something you did instantly at the beginning of your post and all posts since. Not only cause it is a waste of time, but in debating you do not personally attack someone defending the opposing side just because you don't agree with them. When debating you make compairisons between what your debating about and something that will relate to whom you are debating with.

You claim that Starbucks is evil, with extreme Prejudice. Yet I am pretty sure that you don't like it when someone calls you cigarette, homo, fairy, pansy or any of the other derogitory words that homophobes use against you just because your gay. This is also Prejudice. They jump to conclusions about who you are as a person just because your gay without getting to know anything about you. Yet you are doing the same thing when claiming Starbucks is EVIL. Have you sat down and looked into the Starbuck corperation as a whole instead of looking at what you see and making a judgement? If you haven't and it really seems that you haven't, seeing as how you judge Starbucks by your personal expirence, you have made yourself a Hypocrite without even knowing it. Your Prejudging a coperation based on your own personal expirences, just as homophobes prejudge gays because of how they may have been raised, or something that happened to them in the past.

Many psychiatrists have even pointed out that most people that are homophobic are that because of past expirences in their life. Something in their life damaged their view of homosexuals and now because of that they lash out in anger at homosexuals because of it.

Your doing the same against Starbucks. Past expirences with Starbucks in your life now have you lashing out at them, claiming them to be evil.

They are a multibillion dollar corperation. The American Dream. Someone had a small idea to serve coffee on a large scale to millions of customers and it worked. Everyone is entitled to create their dream.

Many say that Starbucks is evil because they are driving out the competition, but thats how part of Buisness works. They aren't purposely driving out those smaller coffee shops. Those smaller coffee shops are just not able to handle the amount of customers that Starbucks can. Buisness is just like life, survival of the fittest.

But also, because of Starbucks, other coffee shops have started to thrive. Why? Because they offer an alternative. This is what real Buisness is about. Competition. You find a nitch and set yourself in it and offer what other companies can't. Without choice there is no Buisness. Without choice, there would only be 1 store for everything, with the same prices that will constantly inflate. It's because of Competition that keep prices down. The buisnesses compete with each other to serve the best product they can for the best price.


I live in a huge city. A place of big buisness and corperations. But if you go all around this city, not only do you see Starbucks, you see many other personally owned coffee shops and alot of smaller corperate coffee shops. Why? Because everyone is not the same, different people like different things and want to purchase what they want in certain ways. Thats why KMart, Walmart, and Target all still exist, even though they offer all the same things. Choice. It's a matter of Choice.

And this is what you are failing to do. You have Choice. You don't have to goto Starbucks, no one is asking you to. But you also have to realize that other people have Choice also. If they want to Build a Starbucks their, that is THEIR Choice. If someone wants to goto Starbucks for their coffee, that is THEIR Choice. It's this choice that allows the Small buisness to still be alive. It's this Choice that makes Starbucks the corperation it is, people like it and go there. Those that don't want to make their coffee shop of CHOICE find other places and trust me they do exist.

Choice.

It's something I leave to you. I'm not here to try to make up your mind, thats for you to do. I only show the facts just like all debaters do.

Choose to read this or Choose not to.
Choose to realize what you wish with the Facts presented.
Choose to attack me again or choose to appologize, which one doesn't really matter to me, because it's not my choice.

My choice is to ignore the slander and state the facts.

What is yours?
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103. PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MajiShyne(ShyGuy) wrote:

Choose to read this or Choose not to.
Choose to realize what you wish with the Facts presented.
Choose to attack me again or choose to appologize, which one doesn't really matter to me, because it's not my choice.

My choice is to ignore the slander and state the facts.

What is yours?


My choice is to completely deconstruct your argument to show you how much you have been behaving like an ass. Hopefully in the juxtaposition of your arguments about why prejudice is bad... given with EXTREMELY prejudicial assumptions about why I was making my arguments... and topped off with playing the gay card as an attempt to castigate me for making said arguments.... you will realize that you were comPLETEly full of shit. I will also show how the image you formed in your head of me while you were reading my arguments is completely not like me, and demonstrate how this ads to your rampant, deserves-to-be-painful hypocricy.

MajiShyne(ShyGuy) wrote:
See Pyston,


First off, it's psyton.

If you're gonna berate me for my arguments... then you might as well spell my name correctly. But at least this shows the fact that you haven't made any chance to really get to know me before you started making all these assumptions about my life as a gay man.

Quote:
your problem with debating is you come into debates with predisposed notions about personal expirences. You fail to create a proper arguement because of this.

Okay... now lemme interrupt you to point out the fact that you are making a predisposed notion about my argumentative capacities, thus proving yourself to be a massive hypocrite...

Maybe, as I have admitted countless times before, I was employing hyperbole and flippancy in an attempt to be funny and instigatory. Now, I admit this was misconstrued and backfired horrendously... but you're not even entertaining the notion that -I- was not entirely serious about the evil of starbucks as a corporation (as opposed to the fact that I just don't like it because it has messed me over several times at several different locations)

Otherwise, my arguments that their drink-tracking systems are currently inadequate I feel are accurate:

The starbucks locations I have been to play a modern-day game of telephone where the cashier tells the barista to make something... and there is no real marker of who ordered what actually sitting in front of the barista. This system has pretty much been proven to me inadequate in the case of my fringe order: I ordered a hot chocolate, they heard mocha... it took all of us a while to figure out that they had forgotten my hot chocolate.... and there was drama in figuring it out so their barista gave me the bitchface like it was my fault their system/memory sucked.

Granted... that might have just been the one location... but I happened to me at separate locations... which fortifies my argument that their system needs improvement

They could put up a computer screen that logs the orders to a ticket number... they could make it a mandatory step to write down the customers name and what they ordered on a sheet of paper... or they could just consume the anger of the few customers they keep waiting for 7 minutes when they screw up their order. At the different Starbucks I have been to... they picked option C... and I feel they have enough money to do A or B... but they might consider that tacky.. or they could have reasons that they don't communicate that come from a marketing or focus-group and I would never know about. They might have even improved it already... but they have made my drink-buying experiences thoroughly unpleasant enough that I don't wish to return there.

I also choose to scoff at people who act like starbucks is ambrosia of the gods because frankly, the hastily re-assembled drinks that eventually were flung at me weren't anything special.

Having made my conclusions that Starbucks customer service systems were not right for me... I applied that maybe they weren't right for other people who might try to do things like cash large bills. Maybe Starbucks just has a policy to not do that... but I don't see any good justifications for a coffeeshop to hold a policy like that since it immediately inconveniences customers. Many a cash-register jockey got on my tits about it because, well, customers who feel inconvenienced by things like failure to cash large bills tend to get ornery and make the working experience unpleasant... but I still think that would be a problem of Starbucks' and not the customer since, well, Starbucks is trying to get the customer's money and policies that inconvenience them make them fail at that goal.

People completely ignored these sentiments and instead got all up in my grill because I said "starbucks be evil" as a joke which is now biting me in the ass. Speaking of ass... All you've focused on this ENTIRE TIME is three words. You've ignored my changes in position, you've ignored my other arguments.. you are now completely focused on your JUDGEMENT and trying to play out how it makes me prejudiced!?

Quote:
Look at the rules of debating. You cannot debate on a subject with any prejudice. Look up the word prejudice. Every post you have made in this thread was done with, as the dictionary plainly puts it, with judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.


Well, maybe it wasn't a full on debate and was just a discussion... and maybe I don't feel it is wrong to make judgements about corporations the same way it's not wrong to make judgements about a major purchase or traffic. The way you're setting me up I feel like you would complain if I posted at any great length about drivers who don't get their brake lights fixed and try and tell me I couldn't buy a Honda because I was gay and Honda isn't as gay-friendly as Ford or Toyota or....

I mean, corporations like Starbucks aren't people with feelings. People with feelings may work there, which is why I tried to qualify points like "Barista == dickhead" with sentiments like "being a" or "acting like" to imply that they weren't always dickheads and they just occasionally acted mean when I broke the drink-making system where they happen to work.

As for the "starbucks is evil" commentary... you chose to ignore (or at least not fully examine) the facts around how I didn't really feel starbucks was evil as much as I felt it was tacky and had some poorly-thought-out policies when it came to me or people attempting to carry out the same sorts-of transactions as me.

Thus, you are making yourself look far more ignorant than you are setting me up to be.

Quote:
This is not a debate about the fact that your gay, that my mother is gay, that people I know are gay. It's about Starbucks. A corperation that you hate so much because of your own prejudice against them.


Then why the FUCK did you think it would be appropriate to bring gayness into it? You played the gay card solely to try and make me look extra-bad for making silly arguments you apparently didn't really take the time to comprehend. And for that, I got right bloody pissed.

Quote:
I was raised in a single parent home by a gay woman. Who tought me one of the most important values of being a TRUE human being. Nonprejudice. This means that I take in the facts before making a decision on anything. This was all tought to me by a woman that thruout all of her life has been a victim of prejudice just because of the fact that she is gay. Her family cut her off because she is gay, friends have cut her off because she is gay.


Well, gee I hope that argument of "I didn't let the car in because assuming his turn signal meant he wanted to get over would have been prejudice" holds up for you in traffic court. I sure hope you can stomach eating at all those restaraunts you don't like because thinking a restaurant making food you don't like would be prejudice...

You are trying to take my criticisms of a money-makin'-machine and say I am prejudiced. The roots of my arguments were not prejudices... they are thought out criticisms of faults in the-way-they-do-business that have maligned me and keep me from going back there. My flippancy about Starbucks was just me being silly, and I'm sorry you misinterpreted it, but I still think you were wrong for trying to take it to the extent you were.

In the meantime, you made a MASSIVELY prejudiced statement: "Of all people you would think that a Gay man, that has had to deal with society looking down on him and automatically judging him because he is gay instead of getting to know him, would be able to look at the entire picture of something before jumping to irrational and basically pointless judgmental bullshit. "

WHO THE HELL said society looks down on me? Who the hell said that being gay was a bane of my existance and that I had to take courageous steps every day just to take a shower and go to work to face all those HORRIBLE JUDGEMENTS that ALMOST MAKE LIFE UNLIVABLE!?

I've got a job I love, a boyfriend I love, and friends I love dearly who don't care I am gay (or think it's sort of cute/hot). The few friends who are slightly homophobic I simply make a point not to make out in front of them... which isn't that hard because I consider most PDA sort of tacky anyways. Granted, I have made a point to hang out with people who enrich my life... and I've held off on notifying some people of my bountiful flamingness for fear of upsetting them... but most of my coming-out experiences were blissfully smooth. My parents were a bit concerned at first but they shloughed it off as soon as they realized how gay I was and just channeled their "will Peter be happy" concerns and advice appropriately and I love them even more for it.

Those people who try and make me feel like my gayness is some horrible cancer that should blight my very existance... are the cancer that blight my very existance. Luckily, I have had to deal with very few of them... and it's a PREJUDICED to think I have had this massive war with society simply because I have stated I was gay when, in reality... you have made NO EFFORTS to get to know me personally or how my gayness has affected my treatment by other people in general.

I'm sorry your mom has had a rough time in her lesbianism, but I am sure she plugs on and gives you the examples of the hardship of her life to help make sure you associate with people who won't evaluate you by anything other than how much they like being around them and how much you enrich their lives and won't let anything like skin color, sexuality, or finances get in the way.

And unless your mom is Starbucks Corporation... I think your righteous arguments are COMPLETELY misplaced on me and my backlash is COMPLETELY justified.


Quote:
My own family won't even have anything to do with her because she is gay? The kindest, most helpful person I know in my life, is being disregarded as a human being because she is gay? Is that justice? In a country where everyone is supposed to be intitled to freedom of speech and expression, there are still people in this nation that still judge people because they are different. Gay's aren't different, nor are Blacks, Latinos, Jews, Muslims or the hundreds of others out there that deal with rasicm, prejudice and slander because they aren't "normal".


Well, the people who are disregarding your mom aren't very good people. But it's best not to focus on them and instead look at the people who do like your mom and make her life better despite all the bullshit. Otherwise, you start succumbing to the prejudices rather than being a living example to how absurd they are.

Now, if Gays aren't different... why the hell would I, as a gay man, not be allowed to make certain arguments? I beleive your reasoning was that I had to deal with tons and tons and tons of prejudice over my gayness and I wouldn't want to spread prejudice.... That argument is REALLY BAD since I was talking about a business and not people. If I ran or worked for a business that upset some customers because I fucked up their orders... I'd try and make up for it... and I'd not think ill of them for telling their friends or a random internet forum "wow, that guy/business really messed up my order" or even "Peter's webdesignco is evil because his system sucks and allowed my order to be screwed up". I'd try and make the system better, because it's money and reputation on the line, and what better way to show up a snarky ex-customer than prove them wrong with shiny improved systems.

Thus, I don't think my gayness enters into this discussion AT ALL, and I think it was EXTREMELY ILL ADVISED for you to bring it up. If I had made a blanket statement about jews or blacks or [insert group of PEOPLE here] and not a business... I'd probably concede the point... but I wouldn't make a statement like that because I know better... and I am extremely pissed off that you are trying to frame me as such.

Quote:
Prejudice is WRONG. IT'S DARE already pointed it out for me. A person that has had to deal with prejudice is the last person I would ever expect to be prejudice against anything. But apparently you took it as Gay Bashing. Which if you did, it wasn't and I am Human enough to appologize that something I said was taken out of context and that you were offeneded by it, but that was not my plan.


You're entire argument against me was based on personifying Starbucks into an ethnic group. You then tried to make a point of saying "how dare you say that about mean 'ol mister starbucks when you, a gay man have suffered so much hardship at the hands of that cruel mistress, miss Prejudice.

I haven't really suffered cruel treatment, and it's prejudice to think so... as it is prejudice to say my statements of "starbucks is evil" was made with extreme seriousness when I reneged and made statements to the contrary several times over.

Quote:
But also, I'm not going to attack someone because they have offended me. Something you did instantly at the beginning of your post and all posts since. Not only cause it is a waste of time, but in debating you do not personally attack someone defending the opposing side just because you don't agree with them. When debating you make compairisons between what your debating about and something that will relate to whom you are debating with.


I dunno, kid. Taking the holier than thou road when you have shaky moral authority makes you look really silly... and your inability to process my counterarguments is showing me that you are close-minded about what constitutes prejudice vs. what constitutes purchasing decisions.

Quote:
You claim that Starbucks is evil, with extreme Prejudice. Yet I am pretty sure that you don't like it when someone calls you cigarette, homo, fairy, pansy or any of the other derogitory words that homophobes use against you just because your gay. This is also Prejudice. They jump to conclusions about who you are as a person just because your gay without getting to know anything about you. Yet you are doing the same thing when claiming Starbucks is EVIL. Have you sat down and looked into the Starbuck corperation as a whole instead of looking at what you see and making a judgement? If you haven't and it really seems that you haven't, seeing as how you judge Starbucks by your personal expirence, you have made yourself a Hypocrite without even knowing it. Your Prejudging a coperation based on your own personal expirences, just as homophobes prejudge gays because of how they may have been raised, or something that happened to them in the past.


You're still taking ONE THING I said (and have since disavowed) and turned it into 500 ways of why you think I am a hypocrite. You have literally taken the base point [Peter is a hypocrite] and built up as many reasons as you can think of to actually frame me as such. In the meantime, you have gotten some really screwed up situations: By your logic... Consumer reports as a purveyor of extreme prejudice since they take peoples opinions and vehicle history and distill them into little star-ratings... and I guess the NHTSA is a horrible institution that needs to be drummed out of the government since they only wreck a subset of cars and then make a judgement about how they will perform in a majority of crashes... those BASTARDS.

Quote:
Many psychiatrists have even pointed out that most people that are homophobic are that because of past expirences in their life. Something in their life damaged their view of homosexuals and now because of that they lash out in anger at homosexuals because of it. Your doing the same against Starbucks. Past expirences with Starbucks in your life now have you lashing out at them, claiming them to be evil.


Yes, and the difference between a person molesting me and starbucks molesting me is that the person goes to jail and gets put on a list and starbucks just loses a customer. And really, I'm just claiming that you might have a hard time if you go to one of the Atlanta ones and try and get anything without coffee in it... although now I'm augmenting it to say that Starbucks might not be able to cash big bills.

Quote:
They are a multibillion dollar corperation. The American Dream. Someone had a small idea to serve coffee on a large scale to millions of customers and it worked. Everyone is entitled to create their dream.


I have a dream that Starbucks starts getting judged for shitty ordering systems rather than my reactions to them.

Quote:
Many say that Starbucks is evil because they are driving out the competition, but thats how part of Buisness works. They aren't purposely driving out those smaller coffee shops. Those smaller coffee shops are just not able to handle the amount of customers that Starbucks can. Buisness is just like life, survival of the fittest. But also, because of Starbucks, other coffee shops have started to thrive. Why? Because they offer an alternative. This is what real Buisness is about. Competition. You find a nitch and set yourself in it and offer what other companies can't. Without choice there is no Buisness. Without choice, there would only be 1 store for everything, with the same prices that will constantly inflate. It's because of Competition that keep prices down. The buisnesses compete with each other to serve the best product they can for the best price.
I live in a huge city. A place of big buisness and corperations. But if you go all around this city, not only do you see Starbucks, you see many other personally owned coffee shops and alot of smaller corperate coffee shops. Why? Because everyone is not the same, different people like different things and want to purchase what they want in certain ways. Thats why KMart, Walmart, and Target all still exist, even though they offer all the same things. Choice. It's a matter of Choice.


Are you done quoting the big book of platitudes by the happy capitalist? I'm almost excited to see what sort of poorly thought out way my bashing of starbucks turns into me hurting you and your mom by proxy... and then point out that you are actually hurting you and your mom all by yourself.

Quote:
And this is what you are failing to do. You have Choice. You don't have to goto Starbucks, no one is asking you to. But you also have to realize that other people have Choice also. If they want to Build a Starbucks their, that is THEIR Choice. If someone wants to goto Starbucks for their coffee, that is THEIR Choice. It's this choice that allows the Small buisness to still be alive. It's this Choice that makes Starbucks the corperation it is, people like it and go there. Those that don't want to make their coffee shop of CHOICE find other places and trust me they do exist.


And it is my choice to bitch when they screw me over, make mediocre product, and don't get it to me in an efficient manner... and I can bitch in any way I choose. It's also your choice to stop reading, or try and pull the gay card to explain why I shouldn't... but the latter choice gives me the imperative to walk out the logic cannons and make you look really, really dumb.
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Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

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claw
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104. PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow you write alot pyston
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105. PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Psyton is just trying to take over Twen's old position of topic crapper.
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106. PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mobile Mayhem wrote:
I think Psyton is just trying to take over Twen's old position of topic crapper.


I was just spending some actual time ripping Shy|Guy a new one because he was REALLY off his rocker.

You could get it back on topic... address the parts of the starbucks argument that didn't involve shredding Shy|Guy's presumption.... but instead you did mild flamebaiting.
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107. PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My barrista yesterday TOTALLY dropped my marble mocah machiatto.

... but then she made me a new one and I was happy again. XD
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108. PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, You guys can really type.

I wonder if people really read all that text. riiight.gif
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