Update on Konami v. Roxor

[DDRNemesis]

People say that Mad Catz never made money off of their dance game, but they did. IT had a ton of popular liscenses. They were really trying to get the teenage crowd for that game. It also seems to me that Roxor will not settle with Konami. I see no chance for Roxor a team of like 5 going up against Konami, a team of like what 5,000? Roxor needs to admit what they did was wrong. Personally, I don't see much of a difference between their new ITG2 dedicated cabinets and old DDR cabinets.
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[Tomo_kun]

Honestly, how can Roxor make that claim that DDR effects THEIR sales, when ITG is a brand new product? As Uiru said, Roxor has been killing/raping DDR machines left and right for their product.

Sorry ITG fanboys and ITG lovers (Which I AM!), Roxor is going to loose.
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Cutriss wrote:

FLCL, God of Gods wrote: Uh... so when do we get the porn forum? If you can't find porn on the Internet, you're not trying.

[L.]

ITG 1 and ITG 2 conversion should be outlawed.
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[Uiru]

[Wolfman Jake]

[DDRNemesis]

d. Cancellation of plaintiff’s Dance Dance Revolution and Konami marks under
both Federal and Texas law;

Anothr interesting find in the countersuit from roxor. So does that mean Konami would have to get rid of their logo or what? ITG could have been in the clear all along if they would have consulted with Konami in the first place. Konami has enough money to even buy out Roxor. All Konami has to do is just keep extending the lawsuit until Roxor files for Chapter 11.
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[ガテク▶◀]

The whole confusion of trademark really hit me the other day when I went to the local bowling alley for some ITG2, which was freshly installed into the old DDR cabinet. The machine was off when I walked in.

Me: "Can you turn on the In The Groove machine please?"

Employee: "What? What are you talking about."

Me: *points* "Can you turn on In The Groove?"

Employee: "Oh the DDR machine."

This was a new employee too, so she wouldn't have been around for the DDR machine. Nobody has ever confused Pump like that, as far as I've seen. All of the decals were on the machine.

The point is, ITG really is that confusing, even with all of the logos covered. Konami has a point with that, it's not all BS.

[Reenee]

[diddrstrait]

yes, lets make this "bash roxor because we don't like their game" time, even though 90% of the original suit filed by konami was about hardware alone. An ITG boxor IS completely different hardware from a system 573, that is what Roxor is stating. Scrolling targets with judgements enter no part of that claim.

Wolfman, I know you enjoy debating this and feeling like you're right, but get your facts straight. Mines were in ITG first, and then they were put into stepmania later. Roll steps are an example of this as well.

Uriu, I know you are a strong supporter of Konami, but saying that Roxor hasn't brought any innovation to the genre? I believe you are somewhat blinded by your own fanboyism. As a side note, DDR Mario now includes steps that you can't step on...mines anyone? Watch who you accuse of stealing ideas, Konami isn't exactly innocent either.

I think everyone is skipping past the actual meat of the lawsuit and going straight towards supporting the company they are loyal to. That's all fine and dandy, but the lawsuit isn't about which game people like better. It isn't about the fanboys and the armchair lawyers, it's about 4 companies who are having a legal squable over an arrow stomping game. If you're really that deep into it that you have to put down other people in your own community of arrow stompers, then maybe you should reevaluate your priorities. The fact that ITG exists shouldn't piss anyone off any more than the fact that sometimes it rains on the day you want to go to the beach. Honestly this sort of debate is ridiculous and completely pointless.

I believe I called it though when I said that roxor was going to try to say that Konami has been ignoring infringement on their patents and trademarks for years though. They're banking on Megamix coming back to bite Konami in the ass.

[Wolfman Jake]

[Goggles]

Some idiot earlier asked, "So how is RoXor NOT a legitamate company?"

When you are a legitamate company, you use your own equipment. You don't use other companies ideas, let alone hardware and then call the finished product unique. It would be like a new car company taking a Toyota car, removing the shell, and putting on their own and calling it something else, then selling it to the public. They didn't put any research into car mechanics, they didn't craft their own parts, save for the shell of the car, they didn't even have to hire people that knew what they were doing for the sake of engines and other neccessary car parts. They just stripped an existing product and made it look different. Fact remains, it's the same product on the inside.

Let's face it. ITG is EXACTLY the same as DDR. Why is that such a hard concept? The arrow layout is the same, it has the same gameplay mechanics (step on arrows, life goes up, miss arrows, life goes down) and on top of that, THEY DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO MAKE THEIR OWN MACHINE UNTIL THEY MADE ENOUGH MONEY STEALING KONAMI'S MACHINES.

Additionally, freeze rolls , mines, and making the arrows scroll at an angle rather than paralell with the screen are not enough to make a game like this different. That is why we have this lawsuit in the first place.
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[Goggles]

Bashing ITG? I don't think so. Wolfman has been using facts alone for his arguments. And Wolfman has been making many great points. Never once has he gone on a tirade of "DDR is better, that's why they should win." So, I don't think fanboyism is a part of his arguements.

By the way, I do believe that when Konami started making their challenge modes on home versions, it had specific challenges where you had to force yourself to miss every fifth note or something...this could be related to the mine idea. Hm...

[edit]...and Wolfman already touched on that...doh...
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[Uiru]

DDR w/ Mario is an example of innovation done right. Yes there are objects you can't step on, but this isn't a totally new convention to DDR (remember Ouch?). And in addition to those objects, there are many, many more which you DO step on, most with various other effects (my favorite being the surprise box which turns all the arrows into coins). There are also explosive, lifebar-damaging objects which you have to step on in order to stop. Gimmick Mode in DDR w/ Mario is the freshest thing to hit DDR since Dance Magic (which Roxor also stole) and the best part is, Nintendo had the common business sense to say "hay Konami, I've got an idea!" so Nintendo aren't getting sued right now.

Mines in DDR w/ Mario are ROUGHLY analogous to mines in ITG, with some differences:
-Appearance; some mines are red, some are green, some are rocket ship parts and some take the shape of icicles.
-Speed; icicles, ship parts and green mines move with the arrows, while red mines are faster. I might have the colors backwards, but whatever.
-Triggering; you have to actively step on a DDR w/ Mario mine in order to trigger it. Simply standing on the button won't do it.
-Comboing; if you hit all the rocket ship parts, they won't explode on you. But if you miss, say, the middle part and hit the top part, it will collapse and you will lose a LOT of life.

Not very important differences, are they? Roxor is trying to argue that the function of their hardware is different from the function of Konami's hardware, and if you can come up with one reason WHY, you should EMail Roxor right now so they might stand a chance of existing in March 2007. Slightly less deep arrows and a different shaped bar isn't going to cut it.
~Uiru
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Uiru's Stepfiles - Uiru vs ITG - Bemani on Wii?

"I just think everytime [Uiru] touches a keyboard, something epic comes out." ~Ω

[Wakka Lakka]

[DragonWolf_]

Back when I liked pogs as a kid there where tons of copycats on the market. Some of these where great some where horrible. Why can't we have two similar dance games? If ITG keeps getting more popular the competition could make things very interesting. If ITG is "exactly like DDR" then why do you people seem to hate it so much. It seems to me that most ITG fans enjoy both games while fans of only DDR spend all their time insulting ITG. It's kind of annoying.

I think the Counterclaim thing is so they can end up with a definitive ruling that would protect games like ITG in the future.....
Does this make sense?

[Heffenfeffer]

[Uiru]

Does eDrive have permission to do that?

Does anyone hold a copyright on football video games? Somebody owns the rights to make NFL games, at the very least, so if Nintendo or Konami or anyone wanted to make an NFL game, they'd be screwed.
~Uiru
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Uiru's Stepfiles - Uiru vs ITG - Bemani on Wii?

"I just think everytime [Uiru] touches a keyboard, something epic comes out." ~Ω

[ガテク▶◀]

Goggles and Wakka Lakka:

Look up a car manufacturer called Ruf.

To everybody thinking Roxor is in the clear for hardware because it's on a different board/computer:

THE PATENT IS ABOUT THE FLOOR SWITCHES.

Andamiro got nailed for the same thing because, if you open up a Pump pad you'll notice that there are 4 mercury floor switches wired up to that Jamma interface.

Also on one minor note I think the 573 also patented how the jamma controls the lighting but who cares about that really.

[Wolfman Jake]

Heffenfeffer, the problem with your analogy is that nobody owns a patent on football mechanics. There can exist multiple football games because they are based upon a game that is basically public domain. Each company executes their spin on how to play football via a videogame console and all are happy. Konami innovated a way to make a dancing "game" and they patented the SPECIFIC ways in which it is executed. It was their invention and they were smart to protect it, but it in no way makes a monopoly on the concept of dance gaming. Everyone is free to make their own dancing game as long as it doesn't overlap with Konami's patented mechanics. Roxor chose to copycat instead of innovate; it's really that simple. All of this is the obvious progression of events spurred by Roxor's decision to ignore Konami's legally protected intellectual property.

DragonWolf_, for the record, I think there are plenty of people in both fanboy camps who "hate" the other game. Lots of people moved over to ITG and then declared DDR "dead," or "crappy," etc. However, I must say that I find it even more rediculous to hate on DDR (than hating on ITG) when DDR is the ONLY reason that ITG even exists. I call that being completely ungrateful.
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Wolfman Jake

[diddrstrait]